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The red and yellow 80's menace

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The Icon

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80’s Hogan sucked Debate. This debate will take the form of me an anti Hogan fan and somebody else a pro Hogan fan, the first pro fan to respond. Other users ore welcome to join in put please don't argue and get the thread closed. Also keep the topic to Hogan in WWF as much as possible as that is what the debate is about.


Hulk Hogan : A Legendary champ, not even close.

Hogan started life as a Big man Heel back in the old AWA company, he was the typical big man getting over with little more than punches & slams but get over he did.

Meanwhile Vince McMahon saw something in Hogan & brought him in to win the World Title from heel Iron Sheik. This match was hugely popular in the day but it looks dated & boring now & probably was only average even by 1984 standards. Hogan feuded with big man heels for the next year & not one of the feuds was any better than average, Hogan’s opponents were crap to a man. They didn’t draw much either then came a man that dragged a good feud out of Hogan Paul Orndorff. They had a very enjoyable, but now dated feud that did draw & was one of Hogan’s better feud. Then there was the WM showdown with Hogan & T VS Orndorff & Piper. It was a great build up but the match itself was & still is poor. Still at least it made a lot of money.

After feuding with Orndorff for several months after Hogan went back to facing Big Heels which would come in lose & leave. Then Came Andre the Giant it may have broke every record in the book but it still resulted in the worst WM match in a long time. His next feuds were forgetable, in fact I have forgotten them. The Next one I remember was with Randy Savage & it was his best feud yet & still stands the test of time.

During his last few WWE years he faced Bossman, Ultimate Warrior & Sgt Slaughter, all Three feuds bombed. Yes they drew money but the resulted in one crap match after another.

So was Hogan a good WWF champ, no he had few good matches & was only over because WWE hyped him so much & Americans at the time needed an American hero to cheer.


I will be interested to read the opinions of the pro Hogan fans, particually Beltmark, and unlike some I will respond with thoughtful comments.
 

Paul

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I will warn you now. Any insults like in teh Hogan v Orton thread and this will be shut down. I know you can argue without personal comments so please do. :)
 

The Icon

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Darkstar I added that to my post just before you said as such. Oh incidently the first post is kept short because that's how debates work. Somebody posts a point (me this time), a reply is made then somebody (again me in this case) posts another point.
 

The Beltster

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I'll make it short and sweet because I wont be drawn into an argument: Hulk Hogan was THE greatest champion EVER. Match quality doesnt mean squat, its a business and he was the most successful wrestler ever. He draw money all over the world for years, and where his matches lacked technical skills, the excitement levels more than made up for it.

The guy who put wrestling on the map and stayed on top pretty much for 20 years, anybody who argues Hulk Hogans success of says he wasnt a good champion really is in the wrong. His gimmick wasnt to put on technical masterpiece matches, it was to tear off his shirt, Hulk Up, hit the legdrop and pose, and it drew more money than anybody who actually was a great wrestler. For example, the Hulk Hogan-led WWF crushed the Ric Flair-led NWA.

Oh, and his feuds with Volkoff, Studd and particularly Muracco drew huge before his 1986 feud with Orndoff leapt into full swing. His feud with Bossman didnt bomb in the least, it was extended and they had an extra 2 month run with cage match blowoffs because it drew so well. His feud with Warrior was a transitional one match deal and sold out SkyDome and drew a great number for WMVI considering the track record of face vs face drawing abilites. His feud with Slaughter drew money, but cost WWF in the longrun as fans switched off soon after, so that could be seen as a bomb.
 

The Icon

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I'll make it short and sweet because I wont be drawn into an argument: Hulk Hogan was THE greatest champion EVER. Match quality doesnt mean squat, its a business and he was the most successful wrestler ever. He draw money all over the world for years, and where his matches lacked technical skills, the excitement levels more than made up for it.
I couldn't agree more with this point. I watched most of these at the time remember and yes they were exiting and yes they drew shed loads of money. Like most I was a Hulk mark in the day However look back at
most any 80's match featuring Hulk. It just looks, well crap now.

The guy who put wrestling on the map and stayed on top pretty much for 20 years, anybody who argues Hulk Hogans success of says he wasnt a good champion really is in the wrong. His gimmick wasnt to put on technical masterpiece matches, it was to tear off his shirt, Hulk Up, hit the legdrop and pose, and it drew more money than anybody who actually was a great wrestler. For example, the Hulk Hogan-led WWF crushed the Ric Flair-led NWA
.

He really wasn't a good champion if you think about it. He was a succesful champion no debate there at all in any way. However what you described is not a 'good' champion it's a succesful champion. Look for example at his modern counterpart Cena, a huge success as a champ but good hardly. Hogan is in the same boat he drew huge numbers but was never a good champ just a succesful one.

Oh, and his feuds with Volkoff, Studd and particularly Muracco drew huge before his 1986 feud with Orndoff leapt into full swing. His feud with Bossman didnt bomb in the least, it was extended and they had an extra 2 month run with cage match blowoffs because it drew so well. His feud with Warrior was a transitional one match deal and sold out SkyDome and drew a great number for WMVI considering the track record of face vs face drawing abilites. His feud with Slaughter drew money, but cost WWF in the longrun as fans switched off soon after, so that could be seen as a bomb.
Yes they really did draw and yes they really were in some cases edge of the seat stuff. That doesn't alter the fact that very few of the actual matches were in any way watchable now or then. They were basic matches that in those days were acceptable and as such could be enjoyed in that context. Booked today with anybody but Hogan they would look rubbish.
 

DarkMatchJobber

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The greatest champion in wrestling history is a subject that has been debated on the internet,radio,television,books and magazines but will never be settled so let's break it down like this - the greatest champion in terms of drawing power,popularity and excitement was Hulk Hogan but the greatest champion in terms of ability in the ring and on the mike was Ric Flair.
 

BRM

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I liked him before he got his American Chopper handle bar tache. :)
 

The Icon

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BRM said:
I liked him before he got his American Chopper handle bar tache. :)
OK strange point but here goes. His tache was (is) silly looking.
 

DarkMatchJobber

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I can name a good feud Hogan had in WWF that was missing from your post Kurtmark.

Vs Ted Dibiase - began when Dibiase tried to buy the WWF title then paid off a dodgy referee and Andre The Giant to get the belt-however Andre was stripped of the gold because a belt could not be given to another wrestler without it being defended and so it was put up for grabs in a tournament at wrestlemania 4,hogan and andre got first round byes and were both disqualified,we later found out that was Dibiase's plan to get the hulkster out of the tournament
 

The Icon

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Yes but there was never an actual Ted Vs Hogan PPV match. Actually that would have being good I think. They did have one PPV tag match which was a bit crap but that aside they never had a real fued.
 

The Beltster

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Kurtmark said:
He really wasn't a good champion if you think about it. He was a succesful champion no debate there at all in any way. However what you described is not a 'good' champion it's a succesful champion. Look for example at his modern counterpart Cena, a huge success as a champ but good hardly. Hogan is in the same boat he drew huge numbers but was never a good champ just a succesful one.
I guess its personal opinion, how you look at it and what you consider good. Lets forget his drawing abilities here, as you said and as I have said, he was a successful champion in regards to drawing, so seeing as that cannot be disputed, we will leave that alone. Now, was he a good champion or not? I say yes. I enjoyed his matches, I liked his workrate, his style, I have always preferred the bigger, slower wrestlers, the power based wrestlers. He really did have some fantastic matches, however because of the era, 99% of his work was on house shows, so alot of it was lost and never seen.

If you enjoyed him, he was good, if you dislike the big man style, then he wasnt good, I guess thats the only fair way to look at it.

Kurtmark said:
Yes they really did draw and yes they really were in some cases edge of the seat stuff. That doesn't alter the fact that very few of the actual matches were in any way watchable now or then. They were basic matches that in those days were acceptable and as such could be enjoyed in that context. Booked today with anybody but Hogan they would look rubbish.
See this is something I disagree with you on, I always enjoyed his matches, and can watch them now and get 10 times the amount of enjoyment out of them than any Angle vs Benoit match, for example. Its personal preference of the style. You might be right in that if they were booked today with anybody other than Hogan, they wouldnt be acceptable, they might not have even been acceptable back in those days with anybody other than Hogan, but Hogan is and always was very clever in that he knew how to work, he knew all the little things, all the tricks, to make even the most bog standard basic match exciting.

Kurtmark said:
Yes but there was never an actual Ted Vs Hogan PPV match. Actually that would have being good I think. They did have one PPV tag match which was a bit crap but that aside they never had a real fued.
This is one instance where era and the way things were hurt Hogan in that there werent anywhere even close to the amount of PPV's or TV in Hogans day than there is today. It was a blessing and a curse. A blessing because less TV and less PPV's are my preference, but a curse because they had to pick and choose which of Hogans feuds made TV or made PPV, and with so many feuds and so little PPV time, alot of them were cut and used as house show feuds.

He had some fantastic feuds on the house show loop with DiBiase, Rick Rude, Mr. Perfect, Big Bossman, Paul Orndorff, Ric Flair, Harley Race, even the Warlord if you can believe that, but they are all pretty much never mentioned and in place, people only ever hear of Hogan vs Andre and so on. It is a shame, because there are tons of great matches I have on DVD from Madison Square Garden, Philly Spectrum, Laple Leaf Gardens, Boston Garden etc shows which are unbelievable, and make his PPV matches look rubbish.
 

Paul

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Was Hogans ability to work a crowd learnt or natural to him do you think?
 

DC

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Darkstar said:
Was Hogans ability to work a crowd learnt or natural to him do you think?
I think he was naturally charismatic, but this was obviously improved on over time.

I think the people who rag on Hogan's matches by comparing them to today's product are missing the point. If Hogan had started his career in the mid/late 90's, then his style would probably be completely different to what it was in the 80's.

As for him being the greatest champion in history....I would have to agree there. Was he the greatest wrestler ever? Not even close, but as a champion, there were very few who could come close. He could (and still can) captivate a crowd like few wrestlers ever could, and was so popular that he was EVERYWHERE.

The reaction that Flair gets today is simply because the fans are smarter now and appreciate what Flair did for the business as a whole, so he is repsected and cheered for that. But back then, he was considered quite plain compared to the blonde. muscle-bound champion of the northern company.

And for those who say 80's Hogan sucked as a wrestler, get a hold of some 80's Hogan in Japan, and tell me the guy can't work a somewhat technical style?
 

King

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2nd post ever so be gentle,
i think hogan has the best personality of any wrestler ever
rock,austin,flair,dx all get load pops but no where near as loud as hogan
now as far as being a wrestler goes all the above are far better.
hogan was good in AWAand Japan but got a bit lazy in the states
 

The Beltster

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Darkstar said:
Was Hogans ability to work a crowd learnt or natural to him do you think?
I think he has a natural charisma and the gift of the gab...in most cases, this cant be taught and is one of those things you either have or you dont. He has perfected it over time of course, but its always been in him.
 

the HiTman

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Wrestling without Hogan wouldn't be the same. And if he alone hadn't of been so successful, most of us might not have got into it.

I can't sit and watch Hogan's matches but I am so very glad he came about. He deserves the respect of the fans.
 

Jack

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Kurtmark said:
He really wasn't a good champion if you think about it. He was a succesful champion no debate there at all in any way. However what you described is not a 'good' champion it's a succesful champion. Look for example at his modern counterpart Cena, a huge success as a champ but good hardly. Hogan is in the same boat he drew huge numbers but was never a good champ just a succesful one.
How do you define a good Champion? I think the facts prove that he was a good Champion, as he drew so much money, was constantly over for years, he made the belt prestigious, he, usually, made his opponents look good.

Does him having bad matches, scratch all that? Maybe he was a bad Champion for you, but I can't see any argument for him being a bad one in general, as he was so successful. If he wasn't, he wouldn't of drawn so much money, I don't think.
 

The Icon

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Jack said:
How do you define a good Champion?
A god champion for every single person can't be defined. Everybody has different taste. For my part to give an example I considered Diesel / Nash to ge a good WWF champion but he bombed in reality.
 

Christof

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Kurtmark said:
For my part to give an example I considered Diesel / Nash to ge a good WWF champion but he bombed in reality.
:D :D :D :D :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D

Seriously? I mean you're debating Hogan as a champion when he is a proven star to, to NASH?!?!
 

The Icon

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No I in no way infer Nash is better than Hogan as a champ, that would be insane. However I got more enjoyment out of Diesel than I ever did Hogan. (Love the Axe Bomber though.)
 
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