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RAW Discussion Thread - December 7, 2009 from Dallas, TX (#863)

TPIB

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Venue
American Airlines Center in Dallas, TX

Last week's edition of RAW scored a 3.2 rating, which was down from the 3.5 number the show had drawn the two previous weeks.

Confirmed Matches/Events
Dallas Mavericks' Owner Mark Cuban To Serve As Guest Host

2-on-1 Handicap Match:
DX Vs. Chris Jericho

Final Build To WWE TLC
 
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Jung

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Poor poor Sheamus. Seriously, just horrendous stuff.

I said it was silly of them to push him from nowhere, but since they've done that they need to push him amazingly strong over the next fortnight. So what do they do?

Have him beat comedy jobber Santino and have him shoved to the ground by a Basketball team owner. He's a monster? Seriously? The last segment was atrocious, on virtually every level. Made no sense, went nowhere and ultimately saw this supposed monster heel take 1 shove and get taken to the ground by a non-wrestler. I mean I don't remember Brock Lesnar doing that. Sheamus needed to be put over as a massive threat, and yet since his battle royal win he's been made to look like a loser. And he didn't look amazing to begin with. Just astonishingly bad, really am in shock as in how they thought it would be a good idea to have your hyped monster heel look rubbish against a nobody. Sure he got the upper hard in the end, but by then the damage was done.

The rest of Raw was fairly meh. Kingston/Orton again was fine as it serves a narrative purpose. Miz getting revenge over Henry was good too. DX were back to crap shilling and Carlito after looking good last week was back to being a jobber.

But good god I'm amazed at about Sheamus. At least he's getting over to some degree, but any aura of him being a monster or even a major threat IMO, have completely disappeared.
 
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DraVen

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The Sheamus thing was good. Great, in fact. They did a pretty good job with it all and it concluded perfectly. Not much on this show that I disliked, in fact.
 

Jung

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I still can't see a positive in having a basketball team owner shove your monster heel to the ground with ease.

Who cares if he destroyed him afterwards. He shouldn't be able to stick him on his backside in the first place.
 

DC

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What should have happened with that was Sheamus not budging from the shove (Cuban still gets the heat/kudos for attempting the move and standing up to Sheamus, while the wrestler stays strong by not moving) and then kicking the crap out of Mark Cuban.
 

Jung

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Oh absolutely, was thinking along the same lines. The guy can shove or hit Sheamus all he likes, but he no sells it or doesn't move. As you said Cuban shows he's got guts, but Sheamus is clearly far superior and Cuban is a chump compared to him. Instead we had Cuban shoving Sheamus easily and convincingly to the mat and then challenging him to a fight while he stands and Sheamus looks surprised on his backside.

I mean forget Shane McMahon decking Randy Orton, Sheamus got owned by the US equivalent of a Roman Abramovich. And he's supposed to be feared as a major threat?

Just awful stuff to me.
 

Nemesis Enforcer

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Have to agree with Jung and DC on this, I said to my brother why did Sheamus simply not no-sell the shove, give him a Big Zeke "Oh no you didn't" look then plant him through the table?

Raw was pretty boing I thought overall, just didn't have much at all to get me interested and seemed more concerned with advancing the DX/Hornswoggle stuff then hyping the next PPV that was 6 days away.

I am baffled why they gave away Kofi vs Orton on free TV and then want you to pay to see it 6 days later, I know Cuban was a biast ref and this is now meant to be the rubber match but they could have just done a brawl that never makes it to being a match all becuase of what Legacy did last week to Kofi and hype that if you want to see them wrestle 1-on-1 with no shenanigans pay for it!
 

TPIB

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While I enjoyed the Sheamus stuff at the end, I also agree with the point that they should not have made it look like Sheamus got knocked on his ass by Mark Cuban.

To me, it was about the size difference that made it a bad decision. Cuban is some out of shape billionaire, but he manages to shove Sheamus to the mat? Cole & Lawler tried to play it off like Sheamus "tripped over himself" and that is why the shove was effective, but it does not really matter what they tried to convey, it is what actually took place.

When it comes to being a Guest Host, Mark Cuban did pretty good in comparison to some of the others we have seen. With that said, did he refer to Legacy as "The Legends"?

I am not happy about this Primo & Evan Bourne tag team. Both of these guys are good wrestlers on their own (more so Bourne than Primo), so putting them together as a jobber team seems like a waste to me.

Honestly, I don't really care what they do with Primo as he is an okay wrestler, but he's not all that good. I've always been impressed with Evan Bourne. Bourne seems to have more good matches than bad (which is increasingly more difficult to find in the WWE nowadays). I am not saying that Bourne should be a contender for the WWE Title or anything, but I think he should be winning matches every now and then; and I mean legitimate-looking wins. I think Evan Bourne is every bit as good as Kofi Kingston, but I think Bourne's size is what works against him in the eyes of whoever books him (which, let's face it, typically all leads to Vince somehow).

When it comes to Carlito's return, it was nice while it lasted. After last week, I thought that Carlito would at least help Sheamus assault Cena or something this week, but I guess I should know better by now. If it was Sheamus-aided, I don't see the harm in having Carlito get the "cheap" win over Cena.

The real question is- what was the point of that match? It seemed a bit unnecessary considering Cena & Sheamus would be in that face-off at the end of the show.

I realize that I am constantly harping on it, but I just don't understand why WWE can not move some of these lesser matches and have them take place on Superstars. The match in question (at least this week) is the Hornswoggle & Eve Vs. Chavo & Jillian match. They couldn't have put that on Superstars? Even with Chris Masters coming in to save the day, I still think it would have been better off for WWE Superstars.

I am going to try not to get my hopes up about this like I did for a Chavo/Bourne feud, but I am really hoping that, given the angle on RAW, that we see a Chavo/Masters feud that does not involve Hornswoggle.

The DX stuff with Hornswoggle is fine; it's not great, but it's fine. They do not need to be working two separate angles with Hornswoggle; much less with one of those angles having him wrestle.

It's funny to me, in a way, that Maryse is acting the same as she did before her injury, yet the commentators keep pushing that she has gone "crazy" or "off the deep end". I don't really see any difference, which is good. The Maryse character (and Maryse for that matter) are perfect as it is.

Hopefully, the third Randy Orton Vs. Kofi Kingston at WWE TLC will be a straight up match without any Legacy involvement or "sneak attacks" or any of that stuff. After two television matches like the ones they had, there needs to be one legitimate match between them.

While I have a lot of complaints regarding RAW, one thing that I thought was done excellently was the Jeri-Show beat down of DX. The highlight of it, for me, was Big Show punching the chair into Triple H's face. I don't know why that came across so awesome to me. The whole thing came across great and made Jeri-Show look formidable, again.

I will almost guarantee that, in the TLC Match this Sunday, we will see Jericho on the shoulders of Big Show with Jericho trying, and possibly succeeding, in grabbing the belts.

I am keeping my fingers crossed for Big Show to grab a table and smash it either over or on DX (either Triple H or Shawn Michaels or both).

As long as they keep a chair out of the hands of Big Show, he should come across pretty good in the match. To me, having Big Show wield a chair seems weird given his size. Show wielding a ladder or table seems to make more sense.
 

Dante Spears

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Hopefully, the third Randy Orton Vs. Kofi Kingston at WWE TLC will be a straight up match without any Legacy involvement or "sneak attacks" or any of that stuff. After two television matches like the ones they had, there needs to be one legitimate match between them.
I could see this working: Orton punting Kofi after a brawl then claiming on RAW that he put Kofi Kingston out of action, and how nobody should ever cross his path and build to the rumble where Kofi makes a surprise entrance eliminating Orton, build up the feud to No Way Out where Kofi Eliminates Orton from the Elimination Chamber and then build to Wrestlemania....

....but somehow I don't see the WWE doing that
 

DraVen

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Try understanding how to get heat for a moment; No one expected the hometown king Cuban to get cocky (and he had reason to be cocky all night - rich guy, just put one over Orton, etc) and actually do something to Sheamus, and falling on his ass added to the drama of it. That he then got up and just destroyed Cuban made it even better. Had Sheamus no-sold it, who would have cared? I mean, part of it was that some people think that Sheamus fell by accident due to the announcers selling of it, but I genuinely don't think the final angle would have gotten the heat without Cuban punking Sheamus for a couple of seconds.

And Sheamus came out great from it - he looked like a star for once, and that's all you can ask for.
 

Jung

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I just think you could have easily had the same reaction with having a basketball team owner floor a monster heel. He could throw punches, slap Sheamus, spit at him, just to prove "come on then!" type stuff. Get the crowd into it, see what Sheamus will do...then he can destroy him. It would get the same reaction, because he's still shown he's got balls and was willing to take it to Sheamus.

While Sheamus did look good at the end, he still got made to look like a complete loser against a non-worker who's not even physical.

People would have easily cared if Sheamus no-sold it because it shows Cuban had guts and that he wasn't going to go down without a fight. Him shoving Sheamus to the floor just showed Sheamus not be a monster at all, and be easily beatable IMO.

I'm sure you could easily get the same reaction without making Sheamus look like an idiot. The end saved it from being a disaster.
 

DraVen

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But the end wouldn't have worked without the build up. If Sheamus no-sold it, it wouldn't have built any heat because people would just think "oh look, the monster is gonna kill him now. Meh." But the fact that he got knocked back and even as far as down on his ass made people, including Sheamus, think "wow, what the f*ck? We never expected that" and that's how the finale worked.
 

Jimmy Redman

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You're all upset about the shove? Really? Christ, I found giving away Kofi and Orton and Cuban fast-counting for Kofi to be FAR more offensive.

Firstly, the shove. I'm afraid I'm in the camp that thought it worked perfectly. Sheamus pushed Cuban down so he (the babyface, and he acts like a tough guy) stands up (after selling a LOT) and pushes him back. Sheamus is caught off-guard and falls down, more out of shock than from force. He's not hurt, he's not flat on his back, he's not anything other than caught off-guard by a shove he didnt expect. Sheamus looks at him like "what the F*CK are you thinking?!" and stands up and KILLS him. Just murders him. Its no contest, Cuban isnt portrayed as equal or competitive with Sheamus whatsoever. He got a quick shove in, then he got killed.

This was nowhere near as horrendous as Shane McMahon beating up Legacy 3-on-1, whomever brought that up. Not in the same universe. If this was January and Shane came out, shoved Orton on his ass once, and Orton got up and destroyed him completely, you wouldnt have heard a peep.

I loved pretty much everything about that segment. They honestly havent built a PPV main so well on Raw in months and months. The 'verbal debate' set up was ultra lame, and I didnt like Cena saying "No comment" like a total geek, but everything else about it was great. Cena's big promo was fantastic, I loved it. No jokes or cute stuff whatsoever, absolute minimum of cheese, no burial of Sheamus, just a serious promo about why he is going to beat the other guy at the PPV.

And Sheamus. I think Mitch said it above, he came across like a real star here. His promos were great, I dont know if I havent noticed as much before or if he was just really good today, but he sounds really, really good on promos. He pitches a decent fit, and getting angry and just booting Cena in the head (..twice) was great. His face after Cuban knocked him down was amazing, just a total look of shock and fury and "You do realise I am going to murder you now?" all at once, and then doing everything ultra-slowly to milk the moment. He really came across so well here, like an actual title contender. I'm amazed that they managed that much, considering this is Raw.

Having said all that, the way they did Kofi-Orton infuriated me to no end. I hated this. One really great thing about this feud was that, for once in their lives, they built the feud, and held off on the match and made us wait and pay for it. Then last week they gave them a match, which turned out OK since it was just an elaborate angle to get heat on Kofi. I still didnt like them having so much of a normal match during it, but it was acceptable.

So today, they do Kofi/Orton AGAIN. They come out, ring the bell, and have basically a normal match for the 5 minutes they had it. There was no interference, no brawl or DQ or whatever else, not even any Kofi beating the sh*t out of him for last week. Kofi got 60 seconds of offense before Orton cut him off and got the heat for the allotted 5 minutes, just like every other match anyone has had on Raw ever. They just...had a normal match. Now. To build to their...normal match, this weekend, that you'll have to pay for. Which is apparently their third and rubber match. Their first PPV match is the rubber match! After they went through so many weeks without blowing their loads too soon, suddenly this first PPV match is a rubber match. I have no idea how that even happened. This feud was SO FREAKING GOOD. It was new, and it was different, not like every other by-the-numbers feud they do these days, it was different, they did some amazingly cool stuff, and they made me desperately want to see them fight and I honestly cant remember the last feud that accomplished that. Suddenly this feud went from "I cant wait until they wrestle each other so Kofi can kick his ass", to "Well I just saw them wrestle, twice, but we might get a clean finish at the PPV, I guess." I went from not being able to wait for this match, to having already seen them wrestle twice in two weeks, and I'm getting sick of the bullsh*t. Cannot overstate how much I hate what they've done here.

FURTHERMORE, I God damn hate asshole babyfaces! Cuban and Kofi, assholes. You also cant think about it logically for more than three seconds, because somehow Cuban planned his revenge by booking this match and refereeing it totally neutrally until Kofi happened to hook in a backslide so he could fast count him. I guess Cuban was hoping the match wouldnt end until he got the chance to f*ck the guy. Anyway, they're assholes. I know Orton f*cked Kofi last week and it was revenge for both of them, but I dunno. To me, whenever babyfaces conspire like that to actually "fix" a match like that, it comes off so assholey. Its not endearing like, say, Eddie doing his cheating spots, or a babyface using the weapon the heel brought in the ring, or something like that, its actually something rather screwy and cowardly. Totally hated that finish, and altogether they've about halved my interest in their match. Way to freaking go.

Moving on, the show as a whole was, actually, quite good. Especially by Raw standards. They built Cena/Sheamus well, and there was nothing particularly offensive outside of Kofi/Orton.

I LOVED the entire Divas segment. Maryse is a goddess amongst women and I am so glad she's back on TV. Gail is a worker and certainly worked her ass off here, this match was totally cool. Maryse bullying Kelly was great, and Melina making the save was great. Now Melina is usually the worst babyface of all time, but I must say, when she's the angry, pissed-off, out for blood babyface, she's great. See, the Beth feud. So she came off good here. I'm actually looking forward to their match. Everything won here. Especially Maryse.

Totes dug the Legacy-Cuban segment. I said it last week already, but again, I love Orton STILL trying to get the ban lifted and get a title shot, because it shows a) they're actually sticking to the stipulation, and b) Orton still wants the WWE Title, he hasnt just forgotten about it and moved on. Teddy and especially Cody cut really good promos, and Cuban was fine until he started slurring his words. Cuban in general was fine, he was clearly super excited and a gigantic mark, he has some personality and can talk well enough.

I also loved them bringing up Orton RKOing him in 2003, not just because it repped the greatest PPV to have ever lived of all time, but they actually had a real history between them to show and build the show upon which made sense, and...they did.

Also, they only got the 3 minute match and they're jobbers and all, but I can totally dig Bourne and Primo as a small spot-monkey babyface tag team. They'd be effortlessly over by just doing high spots, and it would give them something to do, at least.

Henry and Miz was...weird. Good because anything other than Miz keeping the title would have been ridiculous, and good because he needed a clean win here. Bad because it was way short (shocking), and bad because the finish was weak as hell. I realise that maybe Henry is too big for Miz's finish, but they couldnt find a finish better than just a DDT? How anyone can manage to job Mark Henry out is beyond me.

Eve deserves so much better than being stuck in the comedy division. She's quite the decent wrestler. I totally didnt mind this match and angle just because it set the scene for CHRIS MASTERS, HEROIC BABYFACE. Using the pec dance like that was amazing. Its the new *finger point* "YOOOOOOOOOOOOOU~!" as far as I'm concerned. The "MAS-TER-LOCK" chant was also amazing and its incredible how easy it is to make people care about someone just by giving them something even mildly interesting to do. Of course the pec dance is way more than just mildly interesting, its a trillion buys, but you get the point.

And again, DX are asshole babyfaces. That was never in doubt, of course, but shesh. A heel...in a handicap match...against two babyfaces. This sh*t belongs on Impact, actually they even got the handicap match dynamic right last week. Never, ever, EVER a good idea. Jericho sure fought valiantly for a while there though. The post match was great though, I must say. Punching the chair into the guy's face is always an awesome spot, and the whole beatdown was cool, and again put over the TLC elements really well.
 

Jung

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But the end wouldn't have worked without the build up. If Sheamus no-sold it, it wouldn't have built any heat because people would just think "oh look, the monster is gonna kill him now. Meh." But the fact that he got knocked back and even as far as down on his ass made people, including Sheamus, think "wow, what the f*ck? We never expected that" and that's how the finale worked.
But still though he's being put over as a monster heel. I don't think people should be going "wow I didn't expect a basketball owner to put the monster heel on his backside". Yeah it's shocking and not expected, but, to me, it made Sheamus look like a tw*t compared to the other guy. I found it Russo like, shocking but undermines the whole point of the heel. I mean you can have him shove him and Sheamu steps back sure. But shoved to the mat, bumping like he's DDP? We've got a monster heel who just got wiped out pretty easily. So much so that he's not a monster anymore. He's going to destroy Cuban regardless, everyone and his dog knew whatever happened, he's going to destroy Cuban. But to be knocked down like that by a non-worker, yeah it's shocking, but I think it hurts Sheamus more than makes him. I mean so far since his title shot he's beat up Santino and a basketball owner and also been shoved on his ass. He's done alright from simply being with Cena, but apart from that he's not a monster in the slightest.

Firstly, the shove. I'm afraid I'm in the camp that thought it worked perfectly. Sheamus pushed Cuban down so he (the babyface, and he acts like a tough guy) stands up (after selling a LOT) and pushes him back. Sheamus is caught off-guard and falls down, more out of shock than from force. He's not hurt, he's not flat on his back, he's not anything other than caught off-guard by a shove he didnt expect. Sheamus looks at him like "what the F*CK are you thinking?!" and stands up and KILLS him. Just murders him. Its no contest, Cuban isnt portrayed as equal or competitive with Sheamus whatsoever. He got a quick shove in, then he got killed.
Lol see the way he hit the mat, the only way that would be from shock, is if he was Drogba. I know it's not the principle of him being hurt, it just him being made to look a fool by a nobody, at this stage of his push. Cuban was portrayed as punking out Sheamus for a bit, and I'd rather they didn't know that considering he needs better.

But on the otherhand I didn't mean Orton/Kingston simply because it continued their game of anything you can do, I can do. It didn't really give much away it was only 5 minutes. While they say the 3rd is the rubber match, I very much doubt that will be it there and then. I look at it more like these 2 dress rehearsals were mind game tactics and now the PPV match is the proper bout. No tricks, no cheating, no mind games, just 1 on 1 may the best man win.

And either way I'd bet they'll carry on with their feud anyway, so yeah I didn't mind that too much.
 

Jimmy Redman

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Lol see the way he hit the mat, the only way that would be from shock, is if he was Drogba. I know it's not the principle of him being hurt, it just him being made to look a fool by a nobody, at this stage of his push. Cuban was portrayed as punking out Sheamus for a bit, and I'd rather they didn't know that considering he needs better.
How else exactly did he hit the mat though? He wasnt physically hurt, he got pushed by another guy, when you get pushed by another guy that suddenly, you fall down. He didnt really take a big bump or sell it or anything, he just fell over and sat on his ass looking up at him. He was completely unscathed, he was just surprised by it, and yes, embarrassed. So he stood up and killed the guy for daring to push him over.

I really dont think it made him look weak. Its not like he's a proper monster heel like, say, Umaga or Show or Henry, where taking any sort of bump is a big deal. He's the same size as HHH. He got caught off-guard, happened to even fall over (I emphasise it because to me thats how it was) and immediately destroyed him. He wasnt physically bested in any way other than a lucky shot.

I clearly remember a few months ago Seth Green (Seth Green! He's like 4ft tall!) clubbing Cody in the back when he had that match. And Cody sold the club. Does that mean he was owned by Seth Green, that he looked inferior to him? Of course not, Seth just got in a lucky shot from behind. Its the same sort of deal. The guy just got a lucky shot in, he didnt do any damage and he immediately paid the price for being so stupid. I really cannot buy the beef here.
 

Tommate2k9

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RAW wasn't bad. 1 or 2 good bit's and a fair few bad some bad.

Cena/Shamus promo was good. I'm glad Cena got a big pop, becuase i do feel bad for him. He come accross as a genuinly nice guy and a company guy. He just gets bad material from the creative. But yeah Shaumus is looking more and more like a star every week.

The Miz is awesome and i was happy to see him get a win over Henery. Seems People are getting more credible title runs lately. Which is good.

Giving away Kofi/Ortan was dumb. Even if the match was done by fast count, the match went on for too long and gave to much away.

Dx/Hornswaggle stuff is getting really really annying now. There's been no follow up the whole HHH pedegreing hornswaggle. Just seems like it was unnessarery and confusing.

On the subject of the push to shaumus. Yes i think it made Shaumus look kinda week. But it doesnt matter becuase he destroyed Cuban after and Shaumus was not hurt.

I skiped a few bits of this RAW but it was okay. the matches wenr't bad.
 
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